Proverbs for Couples Series: How to Communicate in Marriage (Part 1)

Eric and I didn’t always communicate well with one another. In our early years, I was a jumbled mess of emotions not fully aware of what I was feeling, what was wrong, and what or how to fix the problem. One minute I would lash out and the next minute I would shut down. He, on the other hand, I was convinced missed his calling of being a lawyer.

Over the years, we’ve learned to learn listen well (instead of argue well), ask each other questions, be quick to resolve our issues, and create an atmosphere in our relationship where we can be vulnerable.  All of these steps are part of the communication process.

In today’s podcast episode, Eric and I are going to address the first part of this process taking advice from the book of Proverbs.

 

Show’s Transcripts:

Eric Engle: Hi, my name is Eric Engle with my beautiful, talented wife Jolene Engle for another episode of the Marriage Mentor Podcast. Hey, what are we doing today?

Jolene Engle: We’re doing something new and I am so excited! It’s called Proverbs for Couples. So we are still the Marriage Mentor Podcast. Normally what we do is answer questions from wives…

Eric Engle: Or guys.

Jolene Engle: Or guys. Guys, you write in, but…

Eric Engle: Hey, I’ve shown up on the scene, so I’m part of this act now.

Jolene Engle: You have, you have. No, but of course. I wanted to take more of a preventative approach in marriage of how to really build that Christ-centered marriage. Um, what we’ve done in the past is we’ve just fielded the questions from people and it was more of a triage — how to fix this problem– you know?

Eric Engle: Or how to stop the bleeding

Jolene Engle: Or how to stop the bleeding, yes. Or how to react in a godly way to the situation.

Eric Engle: And now its kinda how to build the muscles. Is that right?

Jolene Engle: Yes. Yes, because everyone wants a great marriage. That’s why you got married.

Eric Engle: Okay, so I’m excited about the topic today which is:

Jolene Engle: How to Communicate in Marriage

Eric Engle: How to Communicate in Marriage. We get so many people telling us, “Hey we just need to know how to communicate, or we don’t know how to communicate,” or you see it out there on the internet or everywhere… “communication, communication.” That’s, that’s the big deal.

Jolene Engle: It drives me nuts. It just drives me nuts when I hear that.

Eric Engle: Because it’s not communication.

Jolene Engle: No, it’s not. Because clearly if you walked into a restaurant, you could order something off the menu. You know how to communicate.

Eric Engle: Okay. So, if I threw something – if you walked in and I threw something at you and hit you in the head, I’m communicating right there, aren’t I?

Jolene Engle: You are. And it’s a very rude form of communication.

Eric Engle: But I have sent you message and I have communicated.

Jolene Engle: You have. And I might just send back a message just like it. laughing

Eric Engle: Well, and so I think that’s a problem that a lot of couples have … is that’s how they’re communicating.

Jolene Engle: They are.

Eric Engle: They’re throwing bricks at each other.

Jolene Engle: They are. They are reacting and speaking with their actions or attitudes in a negative way instead of a positive way. Because when they were dating…

Eric Engle: They weren’t throwing bricks at each other.

Jolene Engle: They weren’t.

Eric Engle: Hopefully.

Jolene Engle: I mean if you were doing that with me…the date would have been over…done!

Eric Engle: We wouldn’t be sitting here today!laughing.

Jolene Engle: We would not! And so it’s a bad marital habit when they communicate in a negative, self-centered way. That’s all it is.

Eric Engle: Okay, so we’re gonna identify some things. You said self-centered. Talk about being vulnerable. I mean that’s a big issue as well in communication, isn’t it? Or lack of vulnerability.

Jolene Engle: Yes, that is a layer and it’s a really big layer. The more that a wife gets hurt, the more we put up our walls.

Eric Engle: And start throwing bricks?

Jolene Engle: Um, well. It depends on the wife’s’ personality. I’m a very aggressive, assertive, intense personality. So in my sin tendency…

Eric Engle: And I’m a very passive type of guy…

Jolene Engle: Oh yes; the Gentle Ben. (laughing) So my sin tendency would be to throw bricks and knives and all that you could imagine. But someone who wants to avoid conflict, which is never your wife, I mean, I love to spar. You know that’s a weakness that I have to realize that my flesh is prone to argue, prone to fight. Where others might have the sin tendency to just stuff it and become kind of passive-aggressive.

Eric Engle: Okay, let’s, so go back to the beginning because you said, “You can walk into a restaurant and order something.” Yeah, you walk into Subway and say, ”I’d like a roast beef sandwich with lettuce and pickles, no mayonnaise.” Okay. Great communication right?

Jolene Engle: Right.

Eric Engle: And they get it. On the other side of the counter, they get it.

Jolene Engle: Right.

Eric Engle: We just communicated.

Jolene Engle: Right, so that’s why I get really frustrated when I hear about, when a couple says, “We don’t know how to communicate.”

Eric Engle: So where’s the breakdown?

Jolene Engle: Well, part of the breakdown is the lack of consideration for the other person. Like if you’re telling me, “Hey I feel this way,” and you were vulnerable. Let’s say you said you were really hurt by this. I could either get real bent out of shape and say, “Too bad, so sad, go cry in your soup, okay, this is your own issue.” Okay.  Or I could listen because a beautiful part of communicating well is the ability to listen well.

Eric Engle: So how do they get to that point, I mean…

Jolene Engle: They got hurt.

Eric Engle: I don’t believe okay…

Jolene Engle: They got hurt.

Eric Engle: Was there no hurt before they got married?

Jolene Engle: Not as much hurt. They got hurt and they didn’t resolve it.

Eric Engle: Well, okay, so here is the other thing: They were invested when they were dating and when they’re engaged they were invested. And so when they were hurt, there was more of an effort to restore, to fix,

Jolene Engle: Or to brush it under the rug and say, “It’s not a big deal.”

Eric Engle: Well, yeah but you’re…

Jolene Engle: They could have been much more gracious. Okay? Way more grace. I was a gracious girlfriend, what are these wives thinking about? I remember being in Bible study, newly married and these were godly women, committed to the Lord and there was just kind of this I don’t want to say,  “nasty” tone, but a little bit of a critical, little bit of bitterness.  

Eric Engle: Sounds nasty to me.

Jolene Engle: Well, but it wasn’t. It didn’t necessarily come out like that it was just kind of…

Eric Engle: So they’re trying to be kind about their husband, but they couldn’t help that.

Jolene Engle: Yes. There was this underlying tone of “I’m not happy with him,” and I thought, “Why are they acting this way?” I mean I’m a new believer and a new bride, okay, so in my mind, I’m like “This is like the crux of the entire group’s perspective.”

Eric Engle: Right.

Jolene Engle: Like towards their marriage.  

Eric Engle: Right!

Jolene Engle: And I thought “I don’t want to be a wife like that.”  

Eric Engle: So let’s go back. Why were you happy with me? I was no Superman.

Jolene Engle: No.

Eric Engle: So what was it?

Jolene Engle: So it was easy for me to be gracious because: we’re in love, it’s new, it’s wonderful. And I’m a new believer, so I’m on the spiritual high of being a new believer and I’m on an emotional high of being newly married, okay? And those two highs could carry you far, but you can’t stay there, you come down. So I had to go search for some wisdom to make sure my marriage didn’t end up like what I saw at the Bible study, the wives at the Bible study.

Eric Engle: So, if we’re speaking to people that are newly married.

Jolene Engle: Right.

Eric Engle: Then the advice would be, “Don’t lose that effort and that effort you put in the relationship.”

Jolene Engle: Right. The motivation.

Eric Engle: And you put it in. And I remember dating you, “Hey yeah, I’m gonna open the door all the time for you and I’m gonna be this gentleman,” and you know I still try to do that, but it’s easy when we been living together for 20 years. It’s easy for me to let you open your own door and that sort of thing, so obviously there’s a comfort, there’s a “comfortability” there that people just kind of take things for granted. Is that right?

Jolene Engle: Sure. You, when you’re dating… when people are dating, it’s very intentional, especially if you know you’re going to move toward marriage.

Eric Engle: Right, because here’s the deal: if I’m dating you and I treat you like garbage…

Jolene Engle: The date is over. laughing

Eric Engle: The date is over and you could get rid of me. And I don’t want that, so I’ve got to keep doing good.

Jolene Engle: Right. Right. Which you don’t obviously want this like works-based…

Eric Engle: I understand, but here’s the deal, look at this: you know people, they go to work and they don’t treat their boss bad.

Jolene Engle: No.

Eric Engle: And they don’t treat their coworkers bad because they want to keep that job. So there’s a continuing motivation there.

Jolene Engle: Right.

Eric Engle: With the marriage, a lot of times, I think the attitude is, “Hey I’m married, this is for good, this is for life…”

Jolene Engle: “I can treat you like garbage…”

Eric Engle: “So now, I don’t have to put any effort into it anymore.”

Jolene Engle: Right, “Oh I could be real.” That’s what I hear a lot of wives will say, “Oh I can be real with him and is just like…

Eric Engle: Real nasty.

Jolene Engle: Right, but well do you want that? Because your actions and attitudes will certainly send a message to him and he’s gonna have a pretty good chance of responding back the exact same way.

Eric Engle: Right, and I don’t want to get into abuse but it’s the same thing when I hear some guy say “Oh well, you know she pushed me to it,” or

Jolene Engle: Which is wrong on so many levels …

Eric Engle: Which is bologna, because he never hit his boss.

Jolene Engle: Right.

Eric Engle: Why not? Why not? I mean I’m sure your boss made you mad, punch him right in the face see how that goes.  

Jolene Engle: Right.  

Eric Engle: See how that works for you.  

Jolene Engle: Right. They try and justify it, but you know you. When you go to work, you’re kind to your boss and respectful to your boss.  If you’re not, your boss will fire you.

Eric Engle: Right.

Jolene Engle: So, the same concept and apply it to marriage. But here’s the reality, “Oh I can treat my spouse like garbage or poorly but they’re not gonna leave me, okay, because we’re Christians,” and they know it’s wrong. They know that divorce is wrong so my encouragement is, well, let’s not treat each other poorly.

Eric Engle: That’s a good point. Let’s start there. Let’s not treat each other poorly, let’s be intentional and since we’re talking, not just, but let’s say we are talking to a newly married couple: Look be intentional like you were before you’re married. Now, if you’re married 10, 20, 30 years you don’t forget what that was.

Jolene Engle: No.

Eric Engle: Go back and start being intentional again!

Jolene Engle: Well, you’re developing and cultivating a relationship, so you know often times I see women who will spend so much time and effort cultivating a really beautiful relationship with her children, okay. And I’m all for that. I love my boys and I want to have a great strong relationship with them because I am the most influential woman in their life today.

Eric Engle: Okay.

Jolene Engle: I can either point them to Jesus, or point them to themselves, or the world, or whatever. Okay. And the way I treat them will determine how their future dates, their future girlfriends will treat them.

Eric Engle: So is the investment of the kids because the wife or the mom has more control over that relationship?

Jolene Engle: Oh sure, sure. And God designed us to shape the life of a child so where it’s hard for a woman is: Okay, you got the mom guilt all day long, you never feel like you’re gonna measure up on being that godly mom that your heart wants to be, and you have souls in front of you that you are responsible to raise up and shape and be this godly offspring. We never feel like we get it right!

Eric Engle: Okay.

Jolene Engle: Okay. So there’s so much emphasis on motherhood and we treat our children pretty fabulous because, you know, we’re leaving a mark on them.  You don’t want children that go astray, so we put so much effort and we’re so intentional about that relationship, but then the marriage gets neglected.

Eric Engle: So, is there part of the thought, those are part of the thought, that the husband can take care of himself?

Jolene Engle: Yep.

Eric Engle: So he doesn’t need to be guided and that sort of thing?

Jolene Engle: Definitely. And when we’re exhausted, who gets the leftovers? Who gets the worn-out wife, the worn-out woman in the home?

Eric Engle: The last guy home.

Jolene Engle: Right. So I had to learn as a young bride and a young mom, “How do I still have, how do I still make this marriage striving, not striving, but thriving in the midst of all the chaos that we’re living in?”

Eric Engle: How did you do that?

Jolene Engle: Well, I went back to the Bible, you know. What did the Bible say? And even if I didn’t, wasn’t, sure what the Bible said, because again I was a new believer, I can remember moments where I’m thinking “Yeah I don’t think Jesus acted like this.” You know, I remember when my boys were really, really little and I came from a home where it was filled with rage and that’s how we were parented…

Eric Engle: Right.

Jolene Engle: And even though I learned how not to treat you like that, I couldn’t figure out how to not have the rage on my children.

Eric Engle: Okay, so what changed? How’d you fix that?

Jolene Engle: Well, I remember standing upstairs at our old house, and the boys are in the tub, and they were just driving me nuts—they were not listening to what I’m saying. I’m screaming at them at the top of my lungs, and I was just convicted you know, after the 1500th time, I was just convicted and it’s just like: That is not what a godly mother looks like. Now I couldn’t have pointed to the verse in the Bible that says, “Don’t yell at your children.”

Eric Engle: You know, it’s interesting though because you say you were convicted, which goes back to the heart of the husband or the wife. What is their relationship with the Lord, to begin with, right? And Jesus said, “Inasmuch as you’ve done it to the very least of my brethren, you’ve done it unto me.” So there’s a great concept in the Bible as to everything you do, do as unto the Lord.

Jolene Engle: Right, I believe all of life is ministry. I can’t separate out, “Oh well I have this online ministry and so I do ministry, you know, at these times and hours and then, you know, I just came home from picking up my youngest son, you know, who’s almost 16 and he was serving at VBS this year that’s still ministry.” So it is me picking him up, ministering to him, in the role as a mom, it’s me serving you as a wife… it’s all, all of life to me is ministry.

Eric Engle: So, if you’re rude to me, you’re in essence being rude to Jesus.

Jolene Engle: Absolutely, because I represent Jesus.

Eric Engle: And vice versa for me to you.

Jolene Engle: Right.  

Eric Engle: Okay, so obviously …  

Jolene Engle: And the Bible says to love your neighbor. There is no other closer neighbor than the one I share my bed with, okay?

Eric Engle: Hi neighbor.

Jolene Engle: Hey, how are you? You know you share the bed, the blankets, the sheets, you can’t get a closer neighbor. So, you have to reconcile those verses and say, “Oh, well I’m great with my neighbor next-door, he’s wonderful,” but yet, if I’m treating my husband poorly or if you’re treating me poorly, but yet everyone around us thinks that we’re just wonderful, but we’re throwing bricks at one another, and then that’s a problem… that’s a problem in a marriage!

Eric Engle: So commitment to the Lord, be diligent about the relationship like you once were. If you’re hurt, okay because a lot of gals, a lot of guys I know you might say well the gals are hurt, the guys aren’t? No, because guys get hurt too.

Jolene Engle: Right, but they respond, they respond either in harsh tones,

Eric Engle: Right.

Jolene Engle: You know, or they’ll stonewall. They’ll just shut down and not say a word.

Eric Engle: Harshly. They’re harsh, or they go dwell on the corner of a rooftop because the Bible says they don’t want to be around that.

Jolene Engle: Right, right, so when I look at the book of Proverbs, I just love the book of Proverbs, because it’s just, it’s wisdom for your world. And when I was a young believer, I just soaked up that book. Even today 20, almost 21 years later, it is by far my favorite book of the Bible. Hands-down.

Eric Engle: Well and it’s how many chapters?  Are there 31 chapters?

Jolene Engle: Yeah, the last one is the Proverbs 31 woman.

Eric Engle: So, so with 31 chapters you can go through virtually every day.

Jolene Engle: Right.

Eric Engle: You can read a chapter a day, and I know that there’s been a recommendation to do that over, and over, and over again.

Jolene Engle: Yes, yes. Even if you’re, whether you’re a new believer, or a seasoned saint.  Proverbs–it is designed to help you walk in this world with your relationships, in my opinion.

Eric Engle: So communication. Then the next thing would be this great thing that we tell couples, “I’m sorry. Will you forgive me?”

Jolene Engle: Right. Learn the script.

Eric Engle: You learn that script and be sincere with it. And sit down with your wife or your husband and set up some rules. Say, “Look, we do these things to each other and we can’t say those things anymore. These things are off-limits. Can we agree that we will not say these things, or we will not blame each other?”

Jolene Engle: And start with just one or two, because, especially if you’ve been married for a long time and you’ve got a lot of past hurts. You know, you can’t bring all your hurts here, you know 20 years of hurts, or 10 years of hurts, to your husband … your laundry list of what/how you wronged me.

Eric Engle: Right.

Jolene Engle: That’s not going, that’s not what you want to do here.  

Eric Engle: Well, love does not keep a record of wrongs.

Jolene Engle: Right, right.

Eric Engle: So, one that’s really harsh, and I don’t know why couples say this, and I don’t know why they say it, but they mention divorce. They just, they say it when they’re angry…It’s just like, you know what, I’m sorry if I’m a little harsh here, but stop being so stupid! It’s like pointing a loaded gun at your spouse when you say that.

Jolene Engle: Well, the trust is broken.

Eric Engle: Right.

Jolene Engle: The emotional intimacy is gone. That is just like you are now living basically as roommates.

Eric Engle: Right, well, and grow up! Look, if you feel that way, it doesn’t have to come out of your mouth, okay? If you feel that way, then go talk to the Lord about it, because nothing good, nothing good is gonna come out of that.

Jolene Engle: You always have to look at what are you looking to accomplish by saying certain words.

Eric Engle: Right, and you can’t take them back.

Jolene Engle: No, you cannot and I learned that at a young age with family members, and I wasn’t even saved. And things came out and the words, I still have those words in my mind of what was said about me.

Eric Engle: Right, right. Well, you know it’s interesting because when I was younger, high school-age, and such, I just said whatever I thought, whatever. And you know, I was being convicted. And there came a time when I realized, you know, “I can’t take that back. I’ve got to stop and think.” So, to this day, because of that about age 18, I started speaking slower. It’s why I speak slowly now because I’m always thinking.

Jolene Engle: That’s probably why I always interrupt you. (laughing)

Eric Engle: Maybe your mind is running a million miles a minute, to begin with, but I’ll still say stupid stuff but just be glad I made that rule in my head that I have to think about what I’m going to say. Otherwise, I would have destroyed this relationship a long time ago.

Jolene Engle: Well, and here’s the deal: communication in marriage, where you have to learn how to cultivate the type of marriage you want, okay? Wives have way more control in their marriage than what they think, okay? But that’s another podcast, that’s another message. And what we try and teach couples is to bring in, express the positive feelings more so than the negative, because what happens in marriage, where the bad marital habits come in, is they’re always expressing the negative, negative, negative, negative — and then you wonder why your spouse is shutting down.

Eric Engle: Okay, so here’s something I would recommend is for them to take the word “you” out of their vocabulary.

Jolene Engle: “You did this, you did that.”

Eric Engle: Try having a conversation with your spouse, even when there’s conflict, and not using “you” unless it’s positive, okay? Now, if you say, “You make great meals, “You treat me nice,” that’s one thing.

Jolene Engle: Well, let me, let me share Proverbs 12:18, “Some people make cutting remarks, but the words of the wise bring healing.” Okay, I would be bringing cutting remarks all day long. My flesh doesn’t even have to stop for a moment. It could go straight into that zone without effort, but what am I looking to cultivate?

Eric Engle: Read that again. I want to hear that verse again.

Jolene Engle: “Some people make cutting remarks, but the words of the wise bring healing.”

Eric Engle: You know when you take that into the physical realm, just: Husband comes home, and you take and stab him with a knife. How’s the rest of the night gonna go?

Jolene Engle: Not well.

Eric Engle: Not gonna go well, right? Now, your husband comes home bleeding and you apply, you apply medicine and a bandage. Now how’s it gonna go?

Jolene Engle: Well, kind of like Proverbs 16:24, “Kind words are like honey: sweet to the soul and healthy for the body.”

Eric Engle: Okay.

Jolene Engle: So your words, the words that you bring, are either building up or tearing down. It’s always that in marriage, and if you’re in the habit of giving the cutting words or the tearing down, then make a note today and say, “Hey I want to stop doing that.”

Eric Engle: So I’m gonna ask you a question I know the answer to, but what would you say about men or women that say, “Well that’s just my personality”?

Jolene Engle: I’d say that that’s your sin and not your personality because your personality is designed to glorify God.

Eric Engle: Right, and by the way…

Jolene Engle: That’s why I share. Kinda like if I did not want to follow the Bible or the leading of the Holy Spirit or here’s one, if I say “I’m a Christian but Jesus is not my Lord because I’m living for me,” then I will justify my sin and mask it, isn’t that cute? I’m going to dress it up and say, “Well, that’s my personality.”

Eric Engle: Well, and no one, and I want to say this right now, no one is more qualified to give advice than you and I.

Jolene Engle: Why is that?

Eric Engle: Because we are very aggressive personalities and you know I won’t start a fight, but if you want to fight, bring it on! I’ll go to the mat, let’s go!

Jolene Engle: I’m sure the listener could tell that there’s a little bite in our…

Eric Engle: I would be one of those guys that would have words, and I got words, you know that big could cut, and so we could certainly do that to each other.

Jolene Engle: Right, our personalities are much more aggressive than passive. I mean, I think the only time we are passive is when we’re sleeping.  

Eric Engle: Right, well maybe half the time we’re sleeping.

Jolene Engle: Right, but the point is when I hear the personality excuse, that’s what it is, that’s what it comes down to, it’s an excuse and God transforms lives. God does not say, “Oh, here’s your personality that will repel everyone,” it’s not designed, your personality is not designed for that.  Okay, now, I thought that when I was not a believer, I just thought, that this is who I am and people need to suck it up and if you don’t like me, that’s fine, that’s your issue. Okay, but the Bible also talks about trying to live with all men and do the best you can with that.

Eric Engle: Of course.

Jolene Engle: But I certainly don’t want to stand before the Lord and then give Him an excuse as to why my relationships were poor. “Well, gee, God, you gave me this severe, intense personality.”

Eric Engle: Okay, then let’s look at Jesus’ example, okay? Was Jesus ever harsh? He was.

Jolene Engle: He had a throw-down with the Pharisees!

Eric Engle: He did, okay, but He was harsh with the wolves, with the Pharisees, with the ones who brought blasphemy. When it was righteousness in question, he drew the line and He was harsh. He told them they make their converts twice as fit for hell than they are themselves. I mean, that’s pretty harsh!

Jolene Engle: Yes, yes.

Eric Engle: And yet the others who didn’t have maybe the communication skills, or maybe the faith, He was very gentle with them and He brought them along.

Jolene Engle: And that’s because they wanted a relationship with Him. Okay, that’s what it comes down to: what is your heart motive? Because for me, I want to be close to Jesus, and I want to be close to you, and I want to be close to my sons.  So my heart motive is to cultivate relationships that honor Christ.

Eric Engle: So let’s start with kind words, not cutting words. And you know I want to bring up an example, and we’re getting on with time here, but real quick:  There was a time when I lived next to, I lived in a condominium and I shared that that wall with my next-door neighbor. It was a condominium full of gang members.

Jolene Engle: Lovely.

Eric Engle: Okay, now …

Jolene Engle: This was before my day!

Eric Engle: It was. But everything, everything about the gang culture and that sort of thing it was against what I believed. Okay, and I did not want to be friends with these people. I mean,

Jolene Engle: But you owned the condo

Eric Engle: I owned the condo and I couldn’t move them because we shared a wall, because that’s how condos are built, right? And so here is a criminal family mindset over there. And it wasn’t like it was my assumption they were gang members. No, it was full-on, “We are gang members this is who we are,” right? And so I realize the principles of the Bible and of Proverbs and I thought, “You know what? I can either make enemies with these people, or I can I can make friends with them and draw them in and draw them close and build a relationship.” And through that, you know, it’s really sad because the one boy who was 16 was actually- not in that complex- but he was out and he was shot and killed in a gang confrontation.

Jolene Engle: Well, and maybe this story is a great precursor to the next part of our Proverbs for Couples. Where we’re gonna talk about influence.

Eric Engle: Influence.

Jolene Engle: The influence of the husband-and-wife. Because when I start to strip down issues in marriage, you know, when we were talking about putting together this series, it’s like: What is the first thing we think that they need to know, you know, now? And obviously, coming off of Proverbs, it would really be what we hear often is the ability to communicate.

Eric Engle: Right. Well, because I screwed up and I share that story now….

Jolene Engle: No, no, no. I’m just saying that you went to communicate with them in a loving way.  

Eric Engle: Right, but I don’t want to leave everyone hanging. I want to finish this story, but because I chose that, I had an opportunity to pray with the mother when her son was killed. The other guy that lived here, I actually got him to go to church with me.

Jolene Engle: Wow.

Eric Engle: Okay, now you know, I’m sitting there with this gangbanger at church, which is fine you know, but I wouldn’t have had that opportunity had I not decided to influence and bring them in like I did.  

Jolene Engle: Well, a person can’t influence another person if their words aren’t kind.

Eric Engle: Right. Okay. Okay, and in my mind, by the way, in my mind I didn’t have kind words, but since I …

Jolene Engle: Because your flesh is safe …

Eric Engle: Absolutely, absolutely. It’s just like the husband and wife that shouts out divorce. I didn’t say what was in my mind, instead, I treat them like I would treat Jesus.

Jolene Engle: Right, well and that’s really key for if you’re looking to strengthen your marriage, better and rebuild it, restore it, is one of the first things I say to wives is just start off by being kind.

Eric Engle: Being kind.

Jolene Engle: Which sounds so simple. It sounds so simple that it’s ridiculous. Like, “What kind of counsel is that?”

Eric Engle: We can be kind to everyone else except our spouse.

Jolene Engle: But it’s huge because so often we’re not kind. We are in the midst of trials and chaos or mundane or storms, and the last person that we’re kind to, at least in my mind of what I battle is, “I have to remember to be kind, to bring those kind words, to bring that kind attitude, so I start there.”

Eric Engle: Right, and marriage is the first ministry.

Jolene Engle: Right.

Eric Engle: And yet we save all kinds of stuff…

Jolene Engle: For everybody else…

Eric Engle: Everyone else.

Jolene Engle: And I’m like, “Stop all the ministries and just come back home and start being kind to one another,” but, okay so I know that we’re close to time but I wanted to share some more Proverbs to help with the communication, the need to share those sweet words. Here’s one:  Proverbs 12:8, “A sensible person wins admiration, but a warped mind is despised.” Okay, so communication, what are you trying to communicate? For example, if I’m trying to win you over, if I’m trying to influence you, say that you’re barely believing you’re a struggling Christian man, okay?

Eric Engle: Okay.

Jolene Engle: And as a wife, I could say “What’s wrong with you?” “When you gonna suck it up?” “When you gonna start going to church?”, you know… I can get on your case.

Eric Engle: Right.

Jolene Engle: Or, I could try and be encouraging and try to lift you up and win your heart so you’re closer.

Eric Engle: Wait, but here’s the deal, if you’re sweeter than everyone else I’m around, guess where I want to go? I’m gonna go towards you and away from them.

Jolene Engle: And that is how most men are, right?

Eric Engle: Right, unless they have a screw loose.

Jolene Engle: Right, but just like, let me give another example: As a woman with another woman, if a listener who is listening to this podcast today, if you’re a woman, do you want to be around a woman who spews venom on you every time you are together or do you want to be with one who is very sweet, and loving, and accepting, and encouraging? I know which one I want to be around.

Eric Engle: It’s a no-brainer!

Jolene Engle: Right, but somewhere we miss that as a wife. We missed the connection of, “Oh, our husband would want us to be sweet kind and loving as well.”

Eric Engle: Right.

Jolene Engle: But for some reason, we don’t flip that switch and say, “Oh, I should bring that same type of attitude to my husband,” because when you bring that then it’s gonna be like, “Yeah I want to spend more time with you, I want to be around you because you’re a safe place,” you know? You’re a woman who is not always griping and complaining and dishing out how I’ve fallen short and so forth.  

Eric Engle: Oh, that’s fantastic to have a wife like that!

Jolene Engle: Well, but a lot of times we don’t know how to put our, stuff our flesh back in where it needs to be, so it’s not seeping out.

Eric Engle: I understand.  

Jolene Engle: You know? One more Proverbs. Proverbs 12:28, “The way of the godly leads to life but the path does not, that path does not” …Did I get that right? “The way of the godly leads to life but that path does not lead to death.” Okay, so if you’re bringing constant words of kind, sweet, loving, encouraging, you’re gonna build a marriage filled with life. If you’re going to bring the opposite, you’re gonna have a marriage filled up with just that emotional death, you know your marriage is dying, your heart is dying inside because what’s happening is that the communication is always negative. And if we could retrain our brains to say, “Why don’t I bring more positive, encouraging words into my marriage today and less of the negative feelings and negative emotions?”, you know the complaints.

Eric Engle: Why don’t you just decide in your mind that you’re going to make this person your friend? My son works at a fast food place…

Jolene Engle: That’s closed on Sundays. That serves a popular chicken sandwich.

Eric Engle: Right, but there was a manager that originally didn’t seem to like him, and he said, “We’re gonna be best friends.” He told that to her, “We’re gonna be best friends.” And every time he saw her he would address her as, “Hey Best Friend!” Okay? Well, guess what? They are friends now.

Jolene Engle: Yeah, they are friends now.

Eric Engle: But there’s not that animosity. Why can’t a husband and wife do the same thing and just say in their mind?

Jolene Engle: So who goes first?

Eric Engle: Who goes first?

Jolene Engle: The wife or the husband?

Eric Engle: Whoever is closest to the Lord should go first.

Jolene Engle: Or who’s listening to this podcast

Eric Engle: Right, right so don’t …

Jolene Engle: Don’t don’t wait for your spouse to make a move.  

Eric Engle: No. Make the move even if you have to make a game …

Jolene Engle: But wait a minute. He’s the spiritual leader of the home. Shouldn’t he suck it up and do it first?

Eric Engle: “Do things as unto the Lord…”

Jolene Engle: I’m bringing you objections that I hear often.

Eric Engle: I get it, I get it, but you know make it a game in your mind say, “Hey, I’m gonna try to make friends with my spouse in 30 days or 60 days,” okay? “And I’m going to deliberately act that way.” You can win them back.

Jolene Engle: Oh absolutely, okay. So, let’s pretend that they’re not at odds, let’s just say that their communication isn’t the best because somewhere that the hearts got hurt, they got really wounded, or they don’t know how to resolve their conflict. So really, this is, this could be a three-part message.

Eric Engle: Okay.

Jolene Engle: So I don’t know how far we are on time, but I don’t know that I want to go into that, so I’ll leave them with a cliffhanger on how to communicate in marriage, really God’s way.

Eric Engle: You want to go into it? I can just cut it up

Jolene Engle: Oh, okay! We’ll do that.  

Eric Engle: So, go ahead …What we do…

Jolene Engle: Actually, I think I’m going to have you stop, because I don’t have, I don’t have verses for those yet to go into how to resolve the conflict.

Eric Engle: Okay, that’s it. That’s a candid look at how we deal with a podcast, so…

Jolene Engle: Yeah, it’s on-the-fly, if there is anyone wondering. We pick a topic, we find the verses, and then we have a conversation.

Eric Engle: So up to this point, there’s enough for someone to think about and deal with their spouse.

Jolene Engle: Yeah so what, what do they do today to start with sweet kind words?

Eric Engle: Sweet kind words, and go back to having an intentional relationship like they did before.

Jolene Engle: Yes, yes. Because you’re taking out one bad habit, figure out what that bad habit is and it might be your husband: he’s just slinging mud at you 24/7, okay? I am not talking about an emotionally-abusive marriage, okay, we’re not getting into that. This is your typical marriage where you have the tit-for-tat going on — kind words are not the norm, okay? They should be the norm in the marriage, and if they are not the norm in your marriage, whoever is listening to this podcast, then be that person who steps up to the plate and be that person who leads like Jesus, even if you are the wife, you still are the cultivator in the marriage. You could still cultivate the type of home that you want because it’s the wise woman who builds up her house and its the foolish who tears it down. I wanted a home that was filled with peace and harmony. That was a big thing for me because I didn’t have that growing up. I walked on eggshells. I tried to hide under my bed, things were thrown at us, I mean there was not this peaceful living environment and anytime I came home and I saw certain cars in the driveway, I would just, you know, my stomach would just sink, because it was just like, “Oh what am I walking into?” So you, if, you know you’re the wife listening to this you can have that really encouraging outlook, and obviously how do you get that? The source is Jesus, it’s always Jesus. You gotta go to Him for the source of that, you know, that well of vibrancy and love.  

Eric Engle: And to be filled up.  

Jolene Engle: Yeah, yeah.

Eric Engle: Because you try to do this in your own strength, you’ll run out of steam, you’ll run out of gas.

Jolene Engle: Yes, so look at your schedule. Obviously, if you got too much on your schedule, I know when I’ve got too much on my schedule, the first thing that goes out the window is me being kind. I know that, and so that is like my measuring stick/my meter for my heart, really how to gauge what’s going on in my life and did I take on too much? There’s just like, oh well, it’s one thing if I had a bad day, but if that bad day becomes a bad week that turns into the bad month, that has now become my lack of character and I’ve justified it because I’m so busy. Which is not okay.

Eric Engle: Right.  

Jolene Engle: So anyways, there’s a lot more to communication. We’ll touch on the vulnerability and resolving conflict because those are elements of how to really communicate in marriage God’s way.

Eric Engle: But let’s start with kind words.

Jolene Engle: Kind words, yes.

Eric Engle: You’re a great wife.

Jolene Engle: You’re a great husband. It’s great being married to you.

Eric Engle: That’s all I got.

Jolene Engle: I’m Jolene Engle here with my husband Eric – which by the way I totally forgot to mention. We have a new site because there are so many men that show up at my site. And while they are welcome to come to my site, I teach women because that is what’s biblical. If they’re wondering, “Why don’t I teach men? Why don’t I answer men’s questions?”, we do do that on the podcast so that I don’t do it separately on the blog because it is a biblical premise that I hold to. I teach women and so we’ve created a new website called ericandjolene.com. We made it is simple as possible that’s E-R-I-C-A-N-D-J-O-L-E-N-E dot com. So, it’s an extension of my site joleneengle.com. Don’t expect Eric to show up and write there. That’s not gonna happen.

Eric Engle: If I show up, I’ll do video or audio.

Jolene Engle: Right, right. That’s his M.O., that’s how he does things. But it is Christian marriage mentoring we don’t say “counseling” because, A) I don’t see and when I look at scripture it talks about older men and older women mentoring the youngers so that’s why I lean towards more of the mentoring and B) when you say that you’re gonna go see your mentors, it that’s much more…

Eric Engle: Mentor implies growth, right? And doing better. “Counseling,” implies that you’re broken.

Jolene Engle: Right, and we will still bring biblical guidance because we use the Bible and that’s how we guide, but I just don’t like the term “marriage counselors,” you know. It just doesn’t sound as warm and inviting.  

Eric Engle: That’s why we’re the Marriage Mentors Podcast.

Jolene Engle: Right, so when you go over to ericandjolene.com, you will see that it is Christian marriage mentoring. The site is new, so you won’t see a whole lot there other than maybe Eric’s face and my face welcoming you on video. And it’s just more of a home for guys to go to. Women are more than welcome there, but obviously, my site is designed for the wives.

Eric Engle: But it makes me feel more comfortable to have a place with you rather than …  

Jolene Engle: Yeah, you’re kinda like this little add-on…

Eric Engle: Right.  

Jolene Engle: Which is weird, but that’s kind of what happened in the ministry.

Eric Engle: I get it.

Jolene Engle: So anyways, I want to share that with the listener.

Eric Engle: Okay.

Jolene Engle: And so I’m Jolene at joleneengle.com, and you are in your own place now.

Eric Engle: I’m Eric Engle at ericandjolene.com.

Jolene Engle: Look at that, alright! Okay until then. Bye Bye.  

Eric Engle: That’s cool stuff.